Maha Jweied of The Responsible Business Initiative for Justice Discusses Intersection of Business and the Legal System

Anne Holsinger 00:00  

Hello, and welcome to 12:01 The Death Penalty in Context. I’m Anne Holsinger, Managing Director of the Death Penalty Information Center. Our guest today is Maha Jweied, CEO of the Responsible Business Initiative for Justice, or RBIJ. Ms. Jweied is an internationally recognized expert on the role of the private sector in justice systems and has dedicated her career to driving legal and policy changes that strengthen and improve justice systems worldwide. Thank you for joining us, Maha.  

Maha Jweied 00:30 

Thank you, Anne. It’s a pleasure to be here.  

Anne Holsinger 00:32 

To start off, could you tell our listeners a little bit about the creation of the Responsible Business Initiative for Justice and the organization’s mission?  

Maha Jweied 00:40 

Absolutely. You know, it’s perfect that we are talking to you about and the focus of your organization on the death penalty, because that’s actually how RBIJ was born. Our founder, Celia Ouellette, is a former death penalty lawyer, and in doing that work, the movement and the community of practitioners from all sectors really came together with Celia in this idea and purpose of creating an organization that could engage with the business community to advance more fairness and opportunity in our society, and especially more justice as it comes to the realities of having the death penalty in this country and elsewhere. So our origin story really is an organization that’s part of the effort to abolish the death penalty, but we have grown since that time. And so, our organization works with businesses across the country to advance criminal justice reform, not just in the death penalty space, but also around issues that relate to the health and vibrancy of the workforce, so criminal record-clearing, occupational licensing reform, driver’s license reform. We also work with the business community to expand opportunity to employment and also think about the ways in which the business community can use their prestige and influence to change the narrative that any of these things are risky to do or that they’re partisan in any which way, but that are common sense and sound to consider. So RBIJ today works across a number of issues and with a number of strategies, but really who and what we are is a justice organization that serves as a bridge between the justice experts that we partner with and the business community who is engaged and willing to lend their influence, their resources, and not just financial, but truly their credibility into advancing all of our missions.  

Anne Holsinger 02:35 

You talked about how the death penalty has been a part of RBIJ from the beginning, but you now have a sort of sub-campaign called Business Leaders Against the Death Penalty. How did that campaign specifically come about? Was there a particular case or a moment that sparked that initiative?  

Maha Jweied 02:50 

Yeah, you know, that really was launched in partnership with the Virgin Group and Sir Richard Branson in an opportunity to really find this influential business figure who is very outspoken against the death penalty and find a way to be able to leverage his influence and his expertise in understanding the role of business being able to do good and being able to come together around this particular issue. So, in 2021, we co-launched the campaign with Richard, Sir Richard Branson. And in that moment, we have started to collect more business leaders who subscribe to a declaration and that essentially the declaration is very clear, and it’s publicly stated on the website that these business leaders are opposed to the death penalty in any form. And then we were able to leverage the influence of these business leaders, both broadly to demonstrate this broad support against the use of this horrific practice, but then also to deploy their, again, as they choose to deploy their leadership in particular cases, in particular campaigns in states where there’s real opportunity to advance the cause of abolition. So today we’re proud, we’re almost 600 business leaders have joined on to the declaration. It grows every day and I encourage any listeners today to consider joining up. There’s no fee. You are added to this really important community of business leaders who, again, are being vocal and clear about their opposition to this inhumane practice. And in return, we offer opportunities to use again, your, their platforms to be able to advance the cause.  

Anne Holsinger 04:32 

People may wonder why business leaders should have a voice in criminal legal policy. To you, what makes them uniquely positioned to advocate for reform?  

Maha Jweied 04:42 

Yeah, it’s a great question, Anne. I think truly there’s no constituency that is more influential and more persuasive to policymakers and decision makers than the business community. And there are many reasons for that, but, but truly they’re employers in society, they’re investors. And again, there’s this sense that, of course, some businesses are viewed as having a potential political stance, but by and large, the business community as a whole is not viewed as being of one political persuasion or the other. So when you can unite business leaders from across different sectors and industries who are in agreement that lending their voice and their influence to advance the justice reform priorities that we present to them, it creates space for policymakers, legislators, decision makers, and the executive branch as well to consider that these issues are ones in which they can have confidence that there’s support for, that they’re not fringe, that there really are opportunities to advance our society and to better our society. So we, we really view and see the value of bringing in the business voice. And as I said, we’re a bridge, so what that means is that the business leaders aren’t crafting those solutions for those communities, but really rather are being educated about what those solutions are as they’ve been developed by experts and by the communities themselves and then choosing to join into these campaigns or not. And everything we do is opt-in. So, if a business leader joins us in our efforts around the death penalty, we don’t automatically subscribe them to joining our efforts in another, another issue in another place. Everything is by choice. And I think that also allows for a lot of flexibility and knowing how and when to deploy these voices. And just one more point is that in addition to being influential with policymakers and decision makers, the business community is also very influential with the public at large. You know, there’s studies that demonstrate that the number one sector that’s the most trusted in our society is the business community. And you know, customers, employees, they’re very keen on seeing what the private sector does and what the businesses that they work for, or they give their dollars to say on particular issues, and they like to influence them as well. And so there is now a moment in our society where the role of business is, is not just to make money, which of course is the primary purpose of most businesses. And that’s, that’s, you know, this capitalist society, but also to lend some of their, their, their, you know, we call it sometimes their resources, their, their talents or treasure, their time to considering other things that can advance again, goodness and fairness in society.  

Anne Holsinger 07:24 

As you mentioned earlier, almost 600 business leaders have signed on to the business leaders against the death penalty declaration. What have you learned from them about why this movement is important to them?  

Maha Jweied 07:37 

It’s a great question. You know, it’s interesting because in the work that we do with these, the, the part of the work we do on, on the death penalty as compared to, for example, the work we do on workforce issues, when business leaders choose to join this particular campaign and effort, it’s really values-based. You know, we, we know those of us who work in the movement to end the death penalty know there are economic arguments around the death penalty, for sure. But truly, especially when you, when you consider what the declaration says, it is a values-based decision that these leaders are choosing to use there again, to be vocal and to be clear that they believe in, you know, more fairness in the world. Not only do they span the political spectrum; they also span the, the, you know, all the ways in which the justice system may have touched a person. Some individuals on the list may have had family members who have been harmed by criminal conduct or even a victim of a murder. And so, they have personal experience in, as being the family of being a victim or in the family of a victim. Some of our business leaders have had experience in the justice system and so also are coming to it by an awareness of having been justice impacted and knowing what the system looks like. You know, the, the other true statement though, is everyone wants safe communities. These are not business leaders who are being, you know, inconsiderate to what it means to have, you know, opportunities to hold people accountable. You don’t find that these business leaders are fringe in that respect at all, but rather the sense of, is our system strong enough to be certain that if you’re choosing to execute someone, we know that the system has produced a decision that’s infallible, that it’s accurate. And we know that nobody who has been sentenced to death actually has any chance of not having committed the crime and, or whether or not they themselves want to be in a society where executions by government is appropriate. So again, business leaders who come to this issue have many reasons why they do. They’re all valid. You know, we don’t, we don’t look into inquiring why they’re coming into this space, but they all subscribe to the same declaration that’s very clear about the importance of ensuring that, you know, as a society where we stand today, not just in the United States, but across the world, that we believe that there is decency in being able to live in societies where the death penalty being abolished is appropriate and important.  

Anne Holsinger 10:31 

You talked about how business leaders really represent a broad spectrum. Are there particular arguments that you find are compelling to business leaders specifically, maybe more so than they would be to the general public?  

Maha Jweied 10:44 

You know, it’s interesting. I think that all businesses need the justice system to ensure their operations are successful. And so what I mean by that is, you know, obviously the criminal justice system is on one side of our legal system and a business may not be the criminal legal system, the criminal justice system to ensure its operations are sound, but businesses want predictability. They want to know that, you know, that there’s fairness in the legal system that they’re using. And for that reason, the sort of strength and the soundness of the justice system is quite persuasive, I think, to business leaders in ways that are special. And where, of course, the death penalty is one extreme, if there’s any problems in our justice system, it infects the rest, so safeguarding the rule of law, I think, is a very clear way of approaching these conversations with a lot of our business leaders that, and again, this doesn’t just extend to the death penalty. I think it’s across all the work we do that business leaders want predictability. They want the rule of law to be sound. And they want to feel certain that if they are choosing to invest or operate in a community, that they know what that will mean for their business. So, there’s a piece of that that I think is really resonant for our business leaders. You know, I had said before that the economic arguments aren’t ones that necessarily we, you know, bring people to this issue. But I think similarly, though, it is an important factor in terms of the use of public dollars. And knowing that the more money we put into a system that requires appropriately, a lot of appeals, a lot of reviews, without, again, clarity on when the finality will come, that those public resources can be reinvested in ways that are more helpful to our communities, including for rehabilitation and, you know, and other ways in which, again, if the funds are redirected to other parts of the criminal justice system, we have more opportunity to create safe communities. So that’s another argument that I think sometimes, or generally speaking, when we talk about the death penalty, can really resonate with the business community. I’m sure it resonates with the public too, who’s curious and interested in around why the death penalty should be abolished. But certainly I think a business leader can understand that even more.  

Anne Holsinger 13:08 

The use of the death penalty in the U.S. often involves significant secrecy surrounding execution methods, drug sources, and procedures. What role does RBIJ see business leaders playing in encouraging transparency around these processes?  

Maha Jweied 13:24 

Yeah, you know, really, that’s a critical point. Some of those transparency laws are put in place so businesses will do business with governments, with state governments, to provide the tools for executing individuals. But the problem is, of course, that once you create these moments of not being able to have transparency in any part of our system, it creates a different society that we want to live in. And, you know, we really, I think the U.S.’s democratic norms dictate that things are done publicly, that things are done clearly, that we don’t have, especially when it comes to execution, we don’t have aspects of that system hidden from public review and scrutiny and accountability. So, you know, it’s fascinating to see how the business community reacts to this. And, of course, there’s going to be a pull and a push in this space around which businesses might want the transparency to be able to do business. But the bottom line is that it’s a slippery slope. And once we start to consider places, especially in the most fundamental aspect of human rights, you know, the right to life, once you start to hide aspects of one individual, the process by which a state or a government can remove, can take someone’s life, then it just will, as I said earlier, infectt the rest of the system in ways that are profound and dangerous. So, again, we have business leaders who are very vocal about their products not being used for execution when that wasn’t the intended purpose of the products that they have developed. I think there’s also a concern publicly that if their products are used for these purposes, you know, what does that mean for their own operations? It could be quite harmful for them. So, it is a mixed bag, I think, at times in terms of considering how these transparency laws interact with the business community. But, again, I think by and large, we have seen a lot of interest by our business partners that, especially when their products are being used unwittingly by them for administering the death penalty, that they want to be able to ensure that they know that and that they can voice their opposition to it.  

Anne Holsinger 15:51 

At the time of this recording, RBIJ has just hosted an event with The Last Mile and Virgin Unite at San Quentin Rehabilitation Center, which used to house California’s death row. In January 2022, California Governor Gavin Newsom ordered that the state’s death row facility be dismantled and that the prison be turned into an quote, innovative rehabilitation center. Can you tell our listeners about that event and what it aimed to accomplish?  

Maha Jweied 16:18 

Absolutely. Yeah, it was a really, first, it was just wonderful to be in partnership with The Last Mile and Virgin Unite and to bring our friends from the business community and the justice community here in California into San Quentin to experience opportunities to engage with the individuals who are housed there, but also to have these conversations at what was a really notorious prison that really was critical for California’s machinery of death. It’s a remarkable rehabilitation. It’s a prison, first and foremost. It’s a prison. Just want to make that clear that, you know, all the steps about entering, the seriousness by which the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation takes their role at San Quentin is serious, so when you visit a prison, you’re not under a false impression that it’s anything but a prison. But there’s a lot of effort being made to provide opportunity for rehabilitation for those individuals inside. We know that the majority of folks will come out one day and that they need to be able to re-enter their communities in ways that are successful for both themselves, their family, and society at large. So, The Last Mile, a wonderful partner of ours, you know, provides training opportunities for individuals there to learn coding and website development in a completely contained Wi-Fi environment, which is fascinating to hear. I mean, they have no access to the internet, but the ability to provide this critical training, hard skills training, so that individuals who are going to be going home actually have a skill that they can then market to prospective employers. They also have an audiovisual center. Obviously, California is critical for a lot of media here and movies and television, so also providing, again, skills that are translatable and marketable is an important thing and wonderful to witness. In addition to all that, though, it was the home of the death row in California, and they gave us the opportunity to visit it, which now is empty and is being converted, I understand, to continue to house folks, but not in the way it currently exists. And it was quite powerful and profound to see where, you know, rows of and stacks of very small cells would house individuals who knew that their lives were condemned. And it’s also important to be able to witness that because California has an opportunity now where the governor has essentially, you know, has paused all executions, and yet it’s still a possible sentence in the state. So, while all the individuals have been moved out of the segregated units into the general population, generally speaking, their sentence still follows them. And so, our hope and part of the conversation yesterday was this opportunity for the governor to consider using his ability to commute these sentences. And it’s true that he can’t commute all the sentences in California. There’s some complexities in the way sentencing works in California where it’s not a stroke of the pen, all of these individuals are automatically resentenced, but the vast majority can be. And so, there is a concerted effort at the moment to encourage and to persuade the governor to use this authority and to help demonstrate California’s model of considering rehabilitation and opportunities for helping individuals extend to also this community who’s been incarcerated. So it’s a powerful day and a really important one that I think, again, adds to the particular effort in California to reconsider what it means to punish, but also what it means to create opportunities. And just to be clear, the effort for commutations isn’t to release individuals, it’s to commute their sentences to another sentence that generally will be life without parole, but there could be some, of course, some opportunities that are a little different depending on the sentencing that exists at the moment and, of course, people’s opportunity to have individualized decisions. But the point is that California, this country is remarkable in that it has, we have laboratories of democracy across the country and seeing what’s happening specifically in California is so noteworthy because, again, there’s opportunity to think about how we as a society treat condemned individuals reflects a lot on us as much as on those individuals. 

Anne Holsinger 21:02 

One aspect of the event, as I understand it, was bringing business leaders face-to-face with residents at San Quentin. What were those interactions like?  

Maha Jweied 21:11 

Yeah, they were quite beautiful. I mean, I’m grateful to our business leaders who joined, who came with an open heart, and for the individuals who are living there who are, you know, willing to engage and have conversations. We had some programming inside, a panel conversation, but then a community interaction moment where we had 20 circles of 20 people, maybe 10 of those, where it was a mix of visitors from the outside and individuals from the inside having conversation. And, you know, one thing that I heard a lot from our partners who came with us inside was how much hope that they were able to witness. Again, it’s still a prison, so that wasn’t misunderstood, I think, by anybody, that there’s still, you know, there’s accountability happening by individuals being there, and that, but on top of that, there’s efforts for real rehabilitation. And what’s really critical is not just the hard skills that are being developed with programs like The Last Mile operating inside, but also soft skills, which this conversation that we were hosting yesterday supports, networking, how to engage, how to have these conversations. You know, we know that you need skills to get a job, but you need soft skills to keep a job. And so, these conversations, I think, also support those efforts. And again, our partners who came in, especially those where it was their first time visiting a prison, let alone San Quentin, they uniformly expressed just this gratitude of being able to be welcomed and have the opportunity to have these conversations and really understand what our justice system looks like and means and have a sense of, you know, what else they might be able to do when they return to their own communities.  

Anne Holsinger 22:55 

For any business leaders who may be listening to this podcast and might be interested in getting involved in RBIJ, what is the first step they should take?  

Maha Jweied 23:04 

That’s a great question. Thank you, Anne. The first, I mean, the very first step is just visit our website, rbij.org. You can look around, see what we do, but more importantly, see where your interests might align. There is a contact form. You can fill that in. Very clearly, we are not a membership organization. There is no fee for service in engaging with RBIJ. We can have a very off-the-record conversation just to explore the interest of the new business partner in engaging in this space. Also, from there, you can get to our website for the Business Leaders Against the Death Penalty. If that particular issue moves you, assuming those of you listening to this podcast may be particularly interested in that topic, and on that website, when you click to that, you can just sign on to the declaration, and we will get in touch. But really, the bottom line here is that we’ll meet you where you are. We are not an organization that names or shames businesses. We are an organization that partners with the business community to advance justice reform, to create more vibrant and safe communities. Really, again, either policy reform, employment opportunities, thinking about the opportunities to employ folks who have been impacted by the justice system when one in three Americans have a criminal record, the huge segment of our community, and so thinking about the ways in which we might have opportunities to think through employing folks who come from this community, as well as lending your voice. If you’re not even needing to be convinced and you already are a business that’s working in this space that is proud to be a fair chance employer, we can also get your word out. And that’s something that we’re really excited to do. We’re excited to be able to share the stories of business leaders who are leading in this space and let the rest of the business community, let your peers know what you’re doing, but also the public know what you’re doing. We know when you speak out, so many listen and we want to be your partner in helping to spread the word.  

Anne Holsinger 25:03 

Thank you. Is there anything else you’d like to share with our listeners?  

Maha Jweied 25:06 

Just to say thank you. Thank you for your interest in what it means to be part of a community of individuals who care about fairness and justice in our society. And thank you to our colleagues at DPIC. Really, we’re so grateful to you for all of the research that you produce and all the ways in which you engage us. We rely on your resources in ways that are profound and being able to talk to our business partners about what’s happening on the death penalty. Just gratitude for a willingness to listen and consider ways in which we can all try to advance more fairness and opportunity in our society. 

Anne Holsinger 25:43

Thank you so much for taking the time to speak with us today. If our listeners would like to learn more about the Responsible Business Initiative for Justice, they can visit their website at rbij.org. And to learn more about the death penalty, they can visit DPI’s website at deathpenaltyinfo.org. To support the 1201 Podcast and all of DPI’s work, please visit deathpenaltyinfo.org slash donate. And to make sure you never miss an episode, please subscribe to 1201 in your podcast app of choice.