Naomi Yavneh Klos on Gas Executions, Holocaust Memory, and Common Ground

Anne Holsinger 00:00

Hello, and welcome to 12:01 The Death Penalty in Context. I’m Anne Holsinger, Managing Director of the Death Penalty Information Center. Our guest today is Dr. Naomi Yavneh Klos, Dean of the Honors College at the University of New Mexico and former Professor of Languages and Cultures at Loyola University, New Orleans, where she held the Reverend Emmett M. Bienvenu S.J. Distinguished Chair in Humanities. Dr. Yavneh Klos is a prominent scholar of the Holocaust and Anne Frank, having collaborated with institutions including the Anne Frank House, Yad Vashem, and the World War II Museum. She is also a founding member of the Jews Against Gassing Coalition, a New Orleans area group opposing the use of nitrogen gas in executions. She’s joining us during Jewish American Heritage Month to discuss the ties between lethal gas executions and the use of gas as a means of genocide during the Holocaust. Thank you for joining us today, Dr. Yavneh Klose. 

Naomi Yavneh Klos 01:02

Thank you for having me, Anne. I’m really pleased to be here.

Anne Holsinger 01:06

To begin with, could you tell our listeners about your work studying the Holocaust and Anne Frank? What drew you to this area of scholarship? 

Naomi Yavneh Klos 01:14

Well, actually, I started my academic career as a Renaissance scholar looking at women and gender in the early modern Italy. However, as I became more involved in honors education and also Jesuit pedagogy, right, I was at a Jesuit institution for 14 years. Both honors and Jesuit education emphasize active experiential learning and also care of the whole person. And so, I really wanted to explore this question of how we develop empathy and compassion in our students. I had the opportunity about 10 years ago to go to Amsterdam and meet with the education team at the Anne Frank House, and I ended up bringing the exhibit, Anne Frank: A History for Today, which they designed back to New Orleans, back to Loyola, and so, I used it with my students at Loyola. We trained students to be docents for their peers, teaching them not just about Anne Frank’s life, but also raising really serious questions about prejudice, intolerance, hatred, cooperations. And so over time, my undergraduates were not only trained as docents for the exhibit, but they also worked with me to train middle and high school students from various schools and programs in New Orleans. And so that near peer training was very, very powerful. We’ll be working with the exhibit here in Albuquerque this fall, but my current project actually looks at knitting as a form of women’s resilience in the Holocaust. I’m working with a colleague who’s a knitting designer, and she has recreated patterns for some of the knitted items that we have been researching, and so we’re using those stories and also the process of recreating objects. We’re looking at that as a way to develop compassion and empathy, both in terms of the Holocaust and just in terms of other marginalized groups. 

Anne Holsinger 03:15

Wow, that sounds like really fascinating work and it sounds like you have sort of a theme of bringing together interdisciplinary focus on these issues, which I think is a great segue into our next question about the Jews Against Gassing Coalition, which you’re a founding member of. Could you tell us about how that coalition came to be and what prompted its formation? 

Naomi Yavneh Klos 03:40

Absolutely. So as your listeners probably know, but maybe they don’t, Louisiana is a state that permits capital punishment. In 2024, however, no executions had taken place in the previous 14 years. There have now been executions beginning in 2025. And those sort of ban on executions had taken place due to ongoing litigation about the use of lethal injection, which can be a pretty problematic method. So, in 2024, in the 2024 legislation session, legislation was passed and signed by the governor, allowing execution by electrocution and also nitrogen hypoxia gas, as well as lethal injection. So there were some of us in the Jewish community who opposed the death penalty outright and advocated against it. I’ll be up front; that would be me. But this opposition to the death penalty did not prevail. And sort of during a discussion among the Jewish community, I think it was the Jewish Community Relations Council. There was a gathering that included representatives of a variety of synagogues and Jewish organizations in the greater New Orleans area. There was a very, very big debate about whether the community should come out against the death penalty as a group. There were some, though, in the community who believed that the death penalty could be justified in certain circumstances. And you may remember the discussion during the sentencing, for example, for the Tree of Life synagogue shooter. There were members of the community who were in favor of capital punishment. There were members who were opposed. This was also a really contentious and difficult time in the Jewish community. This was, right, 2024 is right in the aftermath of October 7th. There was the war in Gaza. There was rising anti-Semitism. And even beyond those tensions, which were certainly a factor here, Jewish people are not a monolith. There’s a saying, two Jews, three opinions. And so, right, so we should expect debate. It’s encouraged in the Jewish tradition. But in these gatherings, there was absolutely one overwhelming area of agreement, vehement opposition to death by gas. And so, working with senators and representatives, a bill was introduced that would prohibit specifically the use of gas as a form of execution in the state of Louisiana. And so, we created a one-issue coalition, Jews Against Gassing, to advocate on behalf of that effort. 

Anne Holsinger 06:27

The coalition has emphasized that there is not an equivalence between the execution of a death-sentenced prisoner and the systematic genocide of six million Jews during the Holocaust. But you’ve also said that gas as a method of execution is, quote, intrinsically linked to the decimation of our people. Could you explain that connection and why it’s so important to the coalition? 

Naomi Yavneh Klos 06:50

Absolutely. That’s a really great question. So, right, during the Holocaust, six million Jewish people and also five million non-Jewish people who were targeted for their ethnicity, their sexual orientation, their political beliefs, illnesses, their disabilities—these 11 million people were murdered. And following government-sanctioned policy, literally millions of these people, mothers, grandmothers, babies, sons, right, human beings, were systematically killed in gas chambers using a form of pesticide Zyklon B, but also using carbon monoxide. So, it was in an attempt actually to punish the perpetrators of these heinous crimes, it was in prosecuting, figuring out how are we going to prosecute, right, the Nazis, this German government, that the legal term crimes against humanity was invented. So even for those who support the role of capital punishment in our criminal justice system, the use of gas as a form of state-sanctioned murder should be deeply troubling. And that’s the perspective of our coalition, which as you’ve noted, does not take a stance on the death penalty itself, but opposes the use of gassing and executions. For many, I would say the vast majority of Jewish people, the Holocaust is deeply personal. Of course, there are the remaining survivors whose number is diminishing every day, as well as their children and grandchildren who are known as 2G and 3G survivors. But even if your family personally was not murdered in the Holocaust, as a community, we mourn the death of our people and the destruction of the European Jewish community. Right, from Norway, which I think had 2,500 Jews in the late 1930s, down to Greece, where pretty much 90% of the very tiny Jewish community was wiped out. There was the annihilation of towns, of villages, of cultures, of languages. And most of us know, that had we been living there and then, we likely would have been murdered too, and we certainly would have been targeted. 

Anne Holsinger 09:05

How does your scholarship on the Holocaust inform your personal opposition to nitrogen gas executions? Is there historical context you think is important for people to understand?

Naomi Yavneh Klos 09:16

Absolutely. So gas, as I’ve just said, was used in the Holocaust as a form of state-sanctioned murder. The first use actually was not targeted at Jews. In 1939, the Nazis began experimenting with poison gas, predominantly carbon monoxide, as a means to kill those deemed, in their terms, right, not mine, unworthy of life due to disability or mental illness. The first mass killings of Jewish people in Eastern Europe were conducted with bullets. Up to 2 million people were murdered in what’s called the Holocaust by bullets. These people often were forced to dig pits. They were required to strip so that their clothes and valuables could be seized, and then to stand on the edge of those pits, where they were mowed down with machine guns. Government leaders, however, decided that conducting mass shootings was too emotionally grueling for German soldiers, and so they began to use hermetically sealed vans that filled with gas to kill hundreds of thousands of people, mainly Jewish people, but also Roma or mentally ill people. And finally, the Germans, of course, built mass killing centers, most famously the one at Auschwitz, but also at extermination camps, that is, camps that were built principally for extermination, right, as opposed to Auschwitz, where some 10% of the people were saved to be worked to death. So, at camps like Sobibor and Belzec and Treblinka, gas was deployed to murder as many as 2,000 men, women, and children at any one time. And so approximately 2.7 million people were killed by gas at these killing centers, and I’m not going to go into details about what that process was like, but it was truly an excruciating death. People were screaming for quite some time, gasping for air. That’s something people can look up on their own. So, I feel like even, and our coalition believes, that even if you believe in the death penalty with this, like, legacy, that it is simply wrong to use death by gas as a form of state-sanctioned justice. 

Anne Holsinger 11:40

Your coalition was formed in Louisiana, but Louisiana is not the first state to adopt nitrogen gas executions. Alabama, Arkansas, Oklahoma, and Mississippi have also adopted the method, and historically, gas chambers using cyanide gas were used in the U.S. for executions starting in 1924. How do you challenge the notion that gas executions have precedent in American history? 

Naomi Yavneh Klos 12:05

I think that’s a really great question, and I think, first of all, if you look at how those executions have gone, the recent executions in Alabama, Arkansas, etc., it’s pretty clear that those who were killed, right, the prisoners, the condemned, suffered tremendously. Also, there was a tremendous amount of mental anguish, even without the actual moment of killing itself. There’s a tremendous amount of mental anguish, not just in knowing that you are going to be killed, but also in being subjected to a form of punishment which you know may cause extreme suffering. To my mind, that is cruel and unusual punishment. Even if you believe in capital punishment, I believe you have an obligation to kill the condemned in the most humane way possible. And yes, gas, hanging, electrocution, firing squads have all been used in American history, but there are lots of precedents in American history that don’t need to be perpetuated. Legal segregation, corporal punishment of children in schools, forced sterilization of people with disabilities, things like the internment of people of Japanese descent in World War II, are things actually, as a country, we have apologized for. So, I think we can’t just say, well, we’ve used gas before, and therefore, it’s okay to do it now. I’ll also say just very personally, I visited the penitentiary at Angola with my students, and we saw Sparky, right? The old electric chair is there in their museum, and you can sit in it if you want to. My students and I all declined. We don’t have selfies of ourselves sitting in an electric chair. So, that was the museum, but they also took us to the actual death chamber. I don’t know if you’ve seen the film Dead Man Walking, which is about the work of Sister Helen Prejean, but the room looks just like that in the film, right? Except you realize, no, this isn’t a film. This is the real room where people have been killed. There’s a gurney looking like a crucifix where the condemned person is strapped down. There’s the red telephone hanging on the wall in case there’s a stay of execution, and you need to know exactly where it is. It’s really chilling and terrifying, and I just think as a country, we’re better than that. 

Anne Holsinger 14:46

You touched on this a little bit in your previous answers, but I’m curious if you have more to say about the humanitarian concerns about how nitrogen gas executions have been carried out, especially those recent ones carried out in Alabama. What are some of the concerns that the coalition has raised? 

Naomi Yavneh Klos 15:04

Absolutely. I think that’s an important question to ask because it seems it’s described, oh, this is going to be painless and of course, we all hope that if there is capital punishment, it is painless, but nitrogen gas executions are designed to cause death by hypoxia, which is suffocation. And although it’s alleged to be painless, there’s evidence that, in fact, the condemned people have been awake, struggling to breathe for many minutes. There have been descriptions from witnesses of those executed writhing in pain for many minutes, and there’s the possibility that the person may choke on their own vomit rather than dying from lack of oxygen. So, I think these are concerns, and I think there’s a way, even if someone is convicted of a terrible crime, that’s not really justification to make their death a terrible thing, right? They’re already dying. We don’t need to make them suffer. That’s not justice. 

Anne Holsinger 16:10

The Jews Against Gas and Coalition worked to pass legislation that would have removed nitrogen gas as an execution method, but the bill ultimately failed to make it out of the House. What was that experience like, and what did you learn about how lawmakers think about this issue? 

Naomi Yavneh Klos 16:25

As you can imagine, it was very disappointing. We know that the Louisiana legislature is, in general, very conservative, but it was still a big disappointment to realize that our efforts had not prevailed. I will say that the Senate Judiciary Committee, before whom I testified, did pass the legislation onto a full vote, which we were pleased with, and which suggests that they listened to our testimony and agreed with our arguments, but the House did not pass legislation out of committee. And in advocating with lawmakers on the Senate floor, I found several who dismissed our coalition’s efforts as just a veiled effort to oppose the death penalty in general. They weren’t really interested in sort of the nuances of the argument. This one gentleman kept saying to me, but you’re against capital punishment, aren’t you? This is really about you being opposed to capital punishment. And while I will say, personally, I’m against capital punishment, I was really trying to move forward the efforts of the coalition, which was specifically to say, okay, if you’re going to choose capital punishment, let’s make sure that it’s the most ethical form of capital punishment that we can execute. 

Anne Holsinger 17:48

As someone who teaches about the Holocaust and works with students on understanding prejudice and intolerance, and as you mentioned earlier, working on building empathy, what do you want people to take away from this conversation about executions and historical memory? 

Naomi Yavneh Klos 18:04

Well, personally, as I’ve said, I think multiple times now, right, I do oppose capital punishment. I believe that each of us, however flawed, is created in the image and likeness of the divine. And I think you can interpret this in a religious context, or you can just see that there’s an innate human goodness in each of us. And that’s a really, really important concept in thinking about empathy and compassion. I also believe that if we are going to assume the power of life and death as a community, we have an obligation to do so as humanely as possible. Even if that person is a murderer who inflicted pain and suffering on another, I’m not going to justify, you know, say, oh, it’s okay to go around murdering people, and we just have to forgive everybody and sing kumbaya. I get that people should have to pay a price. And I will say, having visited Angola in Louisiana with no air conditioning, and all sorts of other things going on, being in Angola is punishment. I believe, though, that our stature as a state, as a community, as a country is diminished when we claim we are enacting justice using the methods of a genocidal authoritarian system.

Anne Holsinger 19:25

Is there anything else you’d like to share with our listeners? 

Naomi Yavneh Klos 19:28

Yes, thank you. I would really like your listeners to think that even though we were not successful in Louisiana, I believe our efforts as a coalition were important. We shared important information with our legislators. We advocated for our beliefs. And I think that’s important to speak up. I also think that in this time of incredible polarization politically, I think most of your listeners know what I’m talking about. I think it’s meaningful that we were able to bring together a group of people who shared vastly different views, right? I mean, we were all Jews in the coalition, but we had many, many other differences. And these different views, not just on the death penalty, but also on Jewish practice and belief, and also at a time, right, when anti-Semitism is surging on the Israel-Palestine conflict, right? So, we brought people together who disagreed on the conduct of Israel, who disagreed even on the status of Israel as a Jewish state. So, it wasn’t like we were this political monolith kind of walking in and what we did was we agreed to disagree and focus on one area where we did agree, which was opposition to execution by gas. And this commonality led to greater alliances. And I think ultimately, like deep affection, friendship, community, like there was a great deal of trust and care for each other that really, really extended beyond kind of our work together on Jews Against Gas, right? We were carpooling to Baton Rouge from New Orleans together, doing things together, and we really got to connect as individuals, finding commonality even across difference. And so I think that offers a powerful model for navigating in today’s politically divided society. And frankly, it gives me hope that we as members of communities can find common ground on which to move forward on issues that are important to all of us. So, it was a positive experience, even though I would like to say it was not positive in terms of the actual outcome that we were seeking. 

Anne Holsinger 21:58

Thank you so much for ending on that positive note. 

Naomi Yavneh Klos 22:02

Thank you.

Anne Holsinger 22:03

To learn more about Ms. Yavneh Klos’ work and the Jews Against Gas and Coalition, you can visit their Facebook page, which you can find by searching Jews Against Gas and Coalition on Facebook. To learn more about the death penalty across the U.S., you can visit DPI’s website at deathpenaltyinfo.org. And to support the 1201 podcast and all of DPI’s work, please visit deathpenaltyinfo.org/donate. To make sure you never miss an episode, please subscribe to 1201 in your podcast app of choice. Thank you so much for joining us today.